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Multi-System Reactor

Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.

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  • toggledbitsT toggledbits

    @crille said in Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.:

    rather a condition and would prevent Reaction/Reset Reaction to run.

    No, that's not how Constraints work. Constraints do not prevent Reset reactions.

    CrilleC Offline
    CrilleC Offline
    Crille
    wrote on last edited by
    #15

    @toggledbits No, but it will prevent the Reaction to run, thus the Reset Reaction?

    toggledbitsT 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • M Offline
      M Offline
      Matteburk
      wrote on last edited by
      #16

      Rule 1 is 1 motion sensor I Master bedroom and 2 motion sensors in bathroom that if any is true (delayed reset 120s)and Natt mode is true master bedroom light and bathroom light is turn on. Reset reaction turn off
      Rule 2 If any of the 2 motion sensors in bathroom is true(delayed reset 600s) and dag or kväll mode is true bathroom light is turned on . Reset reaction turn off

      toggledbitsT 1 Reply Last reply
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      • CrilleC Crille

        @toggledbits No, but it will prevent the Reaction to run, thus the Reset Reaction?

        toggledbitsT Offline
        toggledbitsT Offline
        toggledbits
        wrote on last edited by
        #17

        @crille said in Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.:

        o, but it will prevent the Reaction to run, thus the Reset Reaction?

        THAT is true, so we need to be careful how we phrase it, because your other statement is incorrect and misleading, and would give other readers the wrong idea. But you are correct in the last: if the SET reaction does not run, neither can the RESET, because RESET will only follow SET (once the basic state of the rules has been established).

        Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

        CrilleC 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • M Matteburk

          Rule 1 is 1 motion sensor I Master bedroom and 2 motion sensors in bathroom that if any is true (delayed reset 120s)and Natt mode is true master bedroom light and bathroom light is turn on. Reset reaction turn off
          Rule 2 If any of the 2 motion sensors in bathroom is true(delayed reset 600s) and dag or kväll mode is true bathroom light is turned on . Reset reaction turn off

          toggledbitsT Offline
          toggledbitsT Offline
          toggledbits
          wrote on last edited by
          #18

          @matteburk And the problem?

          Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

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          • M Offline
            M Offline
            Matteburk
            wrote on last edited by
            #19

            The problem is when rule 2 is set and reset is delayed 600s rule 1 is being resetted by reset reaction in it and lights go of in 120 s instead of 600s as it should

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            • CrilleC Crille

              @matteburk I would still put condition "natt"/"dag" and "kväll" in Constraints as it's not a trigger, rather a condition and would prevent Reaction/Reset Reaction to run.

              Edit: Clarification for future readers. Forcing the Constraints condition to go FALSE prevents the SET/Reset Reaction to run.

              M Offline
              M Offline
              Matteburk
              wrote on last edited by
              #20

              @crille I know. that's how I normally think but I have tried this to get around my problem.... 🙂

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • LibraSunL Offline
                LibraSunL Offline
                LibraSun
                wrote on last edited by LibraSun
                #21

                I have a strong suspicion that both of your rules are running simultaneously because they are reacting to very (overly?) similar conditions. That is, when the light is increasing from Off to 100%, it passes 20% and may thereby trigger Rule 1.
                You could include a Restriction on that Condition such that the dimming level "Must be sustained for at least 4 seconds" or so.

                toggledbitsT 1 Reply Last reply
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                • CrilleC Offline
                  CrilleC Offline
                  Crille
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #22

                  What I'm trying to explain is a condition for Rule 1 to NOT run the SET action by setting Constraints according to the opposite of Rule 2 so they won't run simultaneous as both are triggered by the motion sensors.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • LibraSunL LibraSun

                    I have a strong suspicion that both of your rules are running simultaneously because they are reacting to very (overly?) similar conditions. That is, when the light is increasing from Off to 100%, it passes 20% and may thereby trigger Rule 1.
                    You could include a Restriction on that Condition such that the dimming level "Must be sustained for at least 4 seconds" or so.

                    toggledbitsT Offline
                    toggledbitsT Offline
                    toggledbits
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #23

                    @librasun said in Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.:

                    when the light is increasing from Off to 100%, it passes 20% and may thereby trigger Rule 1

                    Yeah, but Rule 1 doesn't say that. Rule one seems to be triggered exclusively by the motion sensors, and as posted (screen shot) potentially by a change in mode if a motion sensor is active at the same time (moving the mode check to Constraints solves this).

                    I would not expect the RESET reaction to run in this case, but I'm also not watching the state of these rules. This might a case where putting both of these rules into the Scope and watching their state interact with each other would be educational. If anything is triggering rule 1, that would be obvious there (also looking just in the status view for the rule at a changing timestamp). But I don't see why the reset would run for rule 1, and I'm off to do some code review and see if I can back into reason...

                    Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

                    M 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • toggledbitsT toggledbits

                      @crille said in Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.:

                      o, but it will prevent the Reaction to run, thus the Reset Reaction?

                      THAT is true, so we need to be careful how we phrase it, because your other statement is incorrect and misleading, and would give other readers the wrong idea. But you are correct in the last: if the SET reaction does not run, neither can the RESET, because RESET will only follow SET (once the basic state of the rules has been established).

                      CrilleC Offline
                      CrilleC Offline
                      Crille
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #24

                      @toggledbits Yes, you are correct. My goal in my head was to make the Constraints condition FALSE to prevent the SET Reaction.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      2
                      • toggledbitsT toggledbits

                        @librasun said in Can someone explain for me how to use Reset reaction in MSR without disturbing other rules.:

                        when the light is increasing from Off to 100%, it passes 20% and may thereby trigger Rule 1

                        Yeah, but Rule 1 doesn't say that. Rule one seems to be triggered exclusively by the motion sensors, and as posted (screen shot) potentially by a change in mode if a motion sensor is active at the same time (moving the mode check to Constraints solves this).

                        I would not expect the RESET reaction to run in this case, but I'm also not watching the state of these rules. This might a case where putting both of these rules into the Scope and watching their state interact with each other would be educational. If anything is triggering rule 1, that would be obvious there (also looking just in the status view for the rule at a changing timestamp). But I don't see why the reset would run for rule 1, and I'm off to do some code review and see if I can back into reason...

                        M Offline
                        M Offline
                        Matteburk
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #25

                        @toggledbits I did have modes in constraints from beginning but then when rule 2 is SET lights turn on in bathroom for 0.5seconds and then off.
                        as this pics show
                        Rule 2 is set
                        Skärmavbild 2021-03-28 kl. 19.18.29.png

                        and at same time
                        Rule 1 Skärmavbild 2021-03-28 kl. 19.18.39.png

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                        0
                        • toggledbitsT Offline
                          toggledbitsT Offline
                          toggledbits
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #26

                          OK. I think I see a bug in the handling of the constraints. I'm still verifying, so sit tight for the moment...

                          Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • toggledbitsT Offline
                            toggledbitsT Offline
                            toggledbits
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #27

                            Confirmed bug, and fixed for today's build 21087.

                            After you update (later today when published), go back to using Constraints for the mode filter. As long as the two rules continue to have constraints that don't overlap, the two rules should not interfere with one-another.

                            Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              Matteburk
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #28

                              Ok Great news, 1 more bug deleted! Great fast work P!

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • LibraSunL Offline
                                LibraSunL Offline
                                LibraSun
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #29

                                I don't know if this is germaine to the discussion, but I would feel bad if I did not at least mention that early on in my adaptation of MSR, I found that Rules that included constraints would often not execute according to plan. Whereupon I moved all of the Constraints up into Trigger Conditions and things settled down. I hope that was just an outlier and not indicative of a bug that has now reared its ugly head.

                                M 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • LibraSunL LibraSun

                                  I don't know if this is germaine to the discussion, but I would feel bad if I did not at least mention that early on in my adaptation of MSR, I found that Rules that included constraints would often not execute according to plan. Whereupon I moved all of the Constraints up into Trigger Conditions and things settled down. I hope that was just an outlier and not indicative of a bug that has now reared its ugly head.

                                  M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  Matteburk
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #30

                                  @librasun that is what I have done in this case. but still didn't work anyway...... lets hope this update sort it up...

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • toggledbitsT Offline
                                    toggledbitsT Offline
                                    toggledbits
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #31

                                    "it didn't work" isn't an actionable description, but I would have expected your particular rules to work when not using constraints, as the problem with re-running the reset reaction was specific to the use of constraints. So today's change is unlikely to alter that behavior, whatever it was.

                                    Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    1
                                    • LibraSunL Offline
                                      LibraSunL Offline
                                      LibraSun
                                      wrote on last edited by LibraSun
                                      #32

                                      @toggledbits I'm inclined to say "YES!" to the need for more elucidation and illustration on the subject of "Constraints" in the MSR Manual. Alas, the "Triggers and Constraints" page (/docs/Triggers-and-Constraints/) -- aside from its title -- currently does not mention Constraints at all.

                                      If I were explaining the concept to someone else, who never used MSR, I'd likely go with, "The Constraints section is intended for additional, often sustained conditions which must also (still) be true when all of the Triggers go true, in order for the Set Reaction to execute. In that sense, they could all just as well appear in the Triggers section."

                                      "So why do Constraints even exist?" they would then ask.

                                      The litmus test I use to differentiate Constraint-type from Trigger-type conditions – and it's more aesthetic than practical, one might argue – is to ask, "How quickly or often does this condition normally change?"

                                      I place the slower-moving conditions (time of day, date, House Mode, sunset, Armed status, weather, battery level, etc.) into Constraints; everything else (power status, counts, dimming level, scenes/remotes, virtual switches, Tripped status, etc.) into Triggers.

                                      How closely does all this jibe with your working philosophy?

                                      ANALOGIES

                                      In MIDI music, "Triggers" are like Note-On and Note-Off events, while "Constraints" function more like Volume and Filters. You can play all the notes you want, but unless Volume is set above 0, there won't be any sound.

                                      In the game of Frogger™, "Triggers" are the jumps between lanes and fast-moving cars, while "Constraints" are the floating logs and landing spots. The frog can run around in traffic all day, but unless a log comes along with an open spot, he will never progress any further.

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                                      • toggledbitsT Offline
                                        toggledbitsT Offline
                                        toggledbits
                                        wrote on last edited by toggledbits
                                        #33

                                        I think the difference is this: is the condition something that should cause action if it changes, or is a condition used to allow or prevent action that may be caused by another condition (or conditions). The former are triggers. The latter are constraints.

                                        "Motion sensor trips" is a trigger (to turn the light on). "Only at night" is a constraint.The changing of the motion sensor trip state causes action. The changing of day or night isn't relevant, but whether it is day or night at the moment the motion sensor changes state is.

                                        Author of Multi-system Reactor and Reactor, DelayLight, Switchboard, and about a dozen other plugins that run on Vera and openLuup.

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                                        • LibraSunL Offline
                                          LibraSunL Offline
                                          LibraSun
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #34

                                          Thanks for the added clarity. I plan to refactor some of my Rules accordingly.

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