Hi All
Hopefully this place looks like a helpful forum as I’m quite new to all this!
I’ve had a few devices all working separately /through their proprietary apps but we’re just finishing off a large house extension and this has added to the list.
I’d ideally like to be able to view/switch a number of different devices on one screen/head end but have no idea where to start.
The devices we have/will have shortly are as follows;
Zigbee Smart Sockets
Zigbee smart switches (for lights)
Heatmiser Neo Underfloor Heating (this runs from a Samsung ASHP but that part is automatic)
Samsung VRF air conditioning (currently using Smart Things App)
Hive (2xLTHW heating circuits in the existing house and Hot Water)
Ring (doorbell!)
Hik Vision PoE CCTV
We have lots of appliances (Neff N70) which we can control remotely but not too fussed about controlling those at the
Moment)
Any help/recommendations would be appreciated!
Thanks
Adrian
I have a legacy home automation set-up running on Windows XP. the computer and software have now died.
I have written a very nice Excel VBA program to replace the software and it can run on any modern Windows system.
My only remaining problem is to output the correct signal to a USB port to trigger the wireless switches.
Has anybody done a similar exercise. Please help.
Hi All,
Kind of new to Home Automation. Started off Using Amazon Echo units and added a Samsung SmartThings hub. I have mostly been using plug in modules for turning lights on and off. I live in a very rural area where the internet goes out a lot. I eventually want to change to to a non internet Hub so things will work without needing an internet connection. But I will post with those questions at a later date.
So, the task at hand is this: I have flood lights at each corner of my house. They are currently controlled by switches at the front and back doors. I would like to add Security Cameras to each corner also. I can easily find small Wifi switches to put into the electrical box where the flood lights are located, then I can terminate the leads together behind the Decora switch to have constant power. Then I can use the constant power up at the lights electrical box to power the security cameras. I would also like to have a wireless switch to take the place of the Decora switch to be able to turn the lights off and on.
I cannot seem to find a product like this. It seems I can find the small wired in switch boxes that will also come with external smart wall switches, but the wall switches are an external box that does not fit in or cover the existing Wall switch electrical box. I can also find Wireless Decora switches that come with a remote wired in small switch box , but they all seem to be RF and do not integrate with a Smart Hub.
I am hoping someone here knows of a product that matches what I am looking for. Any help would be appreciated.
Also any recommendations for Wireless Security cameras are welcome.
Thanks for any help.
Dear Forum,
I am just starting a smart home system. I've wanted to do this for 10 years at most and really would like to get a start. What I have are a couple of SONOFF wifi relays, some 433 (Hz/mHz) switches ( not wifi ) a couple of wifi lightbulbs, and I'd like to expand wifi thermostat, leak/water detectors, garage door openers and what ever else I can think of.
In the SONOFF items I have it's a particular app, the wifi bulbs are another app, and if I do a thermostat there might be another app. My wife is not a Luddite but she damn sure doesn't want to have to trouble shoot if/why a particular app breaks down.
So in what I do understand about smart home things is that I need/want a HUB. I spent 15 years doing some programming so I do have some computer ability, though I'd prefer to stay away from HAVING to line command operate the hub.
I would like a list of HUB's that people have found to be the best. Even better are links to let's say Amazon for that hub.
Regards from Noob Smart Home,
Barry
Hello lovely people. Long time and all that. Hope you're all doing OK.
Bit of a left field one here, looking for extra eyes more than an answer and you're the most logical bunch I know 🙂
Part of our HA system is a Logitech Elite hub and remote control.
This is programmed to control my Cyrus Stereo, our TV, and HDMI switch and our Virgin V6 box.
I've been away for a couple of days. Got back this evening to (eventually) work out that the V6 box appears to be not accepting any commands from the Logitech.
Everything has been rebooted.
Logitech uses IR to control
Cyrus: Fine
TV: Fine
HDMI: Fine
Remote control uses Bluetooth to control Hub.
All commands from the Remote to the hub are executed (one might assume correctly) as the activity LED responds, and if you're controlling (say) the Cyrus, all works fine.
iOS App can be used to control Hub over the WLAN:
All commands from the App re executed (one might assume correctly) as the activity LED responds, and if you're controlling (say) the Cyrus, all works fine.
Native remote (that uses as far as I know bluetooth) to control the V6 box works fine.
V6 box refuses to acknowledge any command other than from the native remote. Remote or app provoke absolutely zero response from the V6 box.
This is annoying, but damned if I can think of any logical reason. One might assume a firmware update on the V6 box, but given that the Hub simply emulates the native remote, that seems unlikely.
I'm struggling to think of where even to start troubleshooting this, so any random thoughts would be appreciated.
My initial approach is to buy another hub in case there's a different radio set that's failed in the hub...
TIA!
C
I currently have an HVAC system in the attic - for heating and A/C. 120v is supplied to the unit to run the gas heating. A/C uses 240v. I have an ecobee thermostat...which sometimes goes offline....not often. When it goes offline, I need to turn the 120v power to the HVAC system off and then back on (the ecobee gets its power from the HVAC system). That resets the ecobee and all is fine. I spend the summer away from this house and if the ecobee goes offine..I have no current method to reset the HVAC 120v power remotely. My idea is to replace the current 120v plug in the attic with a smart plug...then I can remotely turn the 120v power off and the ecobee will reset and come back online. I use Wyze and Lutron Casita in the house currently and was hoping I could find an in-wall smart plug from Wyze or Lutron. Obviously, I don't need diming, etc...just the ability to turn the plug power on/off. I've seen some options...but one problem I have is the attic can reach up to 135F in the summer...many of the smart plugs I've seen are not rated for that temperature. Might any of you have any thoughts on a smart plug I might want to look at? I don't want to invest in anything that would require a new hub - so either WiFi based or Casita HUB based. I need 120v and 15amp ratings. Thanks in advance.
I am trying to run a reaction that turns on lights if a sensor has not been tripped for 2 minutes. Basically, when a garage door is open, turn on inside lights if nothing has been sensed for 2 minutes. My question has to do with the expression/variable for "Last Seen". The variable never gets updated over time since the last seen event never changes.
Screenshot 2024-09-02 191632.png
In the screenshot above, the reaction checks for any garage door as well as the variable called "GarageLastEntry". The expression for this variable is displayed below:
Screenshot 2024-09-02 191651.png
The problem that I am experiencing is that the variable never changes over time. I understand that this is because the "last seen" variable does not change over time when there is no activity. In this screenshot, the value shows 0.029... This can also be seen as the current value in the original reaction screenshot above. After 10 minutes, this value should be 10. However, when a garage door is opened, the variable does not get updated and thus the rule does not become true since .029 is less than 2.
When I go to the variable and click on the > icon, the variable then gets updated as expected as seen below:
Screenshot 2024-09-02 191711.png
So the ultimate question is, how do I use a rule that can use a variable such as "last seen"? Do I need to create another variable or reaction that multiplies this by 1 every minute? From what I read in the manual, a variable is evaluated every time it is included in a reaction. But this is not what I am seeing.
I also want to ask another question related to this variable. It seems like Reactor continuously deletes this variable and I have to keep recreating it? I have never experienced this with MSR so wanted to ask if this is a common problem or if my definition is causing this.
Any info is appreciated!!!
BACKGROUND
I have been using 4 x Yale Contactless Connected Door Locks for several years (they use either a rfid tag or code to enter)
I have also been using 1 x Yale L1 Door Lock on the main front door and this connects via Yale Software
Yale contacted me to advise the L1 Lock software was being withdrawn and I needed to install a Yale Access Module into the existing lock and a Wi-Fi Bridge to link it with the newly released software
ALL of the above was working just fine.
RECENT
Yale emailed to advise I should add a Yale Access Module to each of the 4 other locks as this would link with the updated software via the Wi-Fi Bridge.
They offered a deal of just £4 each for these Modules so I got them.
THE PROBLEM
I found that only 2 of these modules would slot easily into the locks - two of them bent the pins and one of those snapped the female part in a lock (I do have a spare lock but thats not the point).
Anyway, I began to set-up the two fitted Modules with the Wi-Fi Bridge and I eventually found (thanks Google, NOT Yale) that I now need 1 x Wi-Fi Bridge PER LOCK (£50 each).
QUESTION
Does anyone know of a compatible Wi-Fi Bridge which works with Yale AND can handle multiple connections (ie 5 all 5 of my locks) ?
THANK YOU
Some of you may know that I took at shot at building an alternate geofencing solution for Vera. The core of it was system agnostic, using the OwnTracks application and AWS lambdas to track devices and keep a central data, then disseminate that to the Vera via a websocket-based plugin. It worked with other apps as well, including Tasker and GPSLogger, but of the dozen people that were testing it, most used OwnTracks.
A lot was learned in the process, not the least of which is that the success of any such solution is highly dependent on the phone and its settings. Phone manufacturers love to set things up for the longest battery life, of course, but that's usually very anti-geofencing behavior. In the case of at least one brand, it was unusable and the settings could not be modified. It was also cost-prohibitive to maintain on Amazon, as AWS grabs a dime here and a dollar there and before you know it, it added $100/month to my AWS bill, which my wife deducted from my Scotch budget. Unacceptable.
But it's quite reasonable to use OwnTracks to a local endpoint, and I could pretty easily replicate the functionality as a local application, or maybe even as an additional endpoint built into MSR's API (still separate port and process, but in the package).
So the question really is... would you do it, or would you be too concerned about the security risks associated (e.g., dynamic DNS and NAT mapping in the firewall necessary for the phone to contact the service when not on LAN)?
Hello forum instigators.
Not sure who host/runs the forum software but a couple of challenges:
The chat is not currently usable, as the scrolling is all not right and it's not possible to read chats or send chats reliably.
There are a lot of female members that should perhaps be on another forum; where they can advertise their skills more appropriately. Note: I agree it's a job, like any other.
Whoever you are - thank you for your invaluable work.
I run a B&B and am looking for a way to turn the lights off whenever a room is unoccupied for X amount of time. The guest should still be able to turn the lights on and off manually, but should not be able to disable the auto turn off feature if the room is unoccupied.
I guess I am looking for a light switch with a built in presence sensor? I guess a presence sensor would be better as if it is a motion sensor, the lights may go off unwanted if the guest fails to make sufficient movement e.g. if the guest is lying down watching a film.
Are there any products on the market that would work for my application?
Hello,
I am in search of a device capable of using Bluetooth to connect with a smartphone and serve as its primary sound source on demand. This device should function similarly to conventional Bluetooth headphones, which automatically become the phone's sound output upon activation. However, this device should differ in that it transmits the audio signal to an amplifier via a jack, SPDIF, or similar connection. Alternatively, it could be an integrated amplifier that directly sends the signal to passive speakers.
The control of this process should be manageable through an API such as MQTT, REST, MODBUS, or similar. Are you aware of any devices that operate in this manner?
The concept is as follows: upon entering the bathroom, I would press a wall-mounted switch. This switch would send a signal to the Bluetooth device, prompting it to connect to my smartphone and seamlessly continue playing the audiobook I am currently listening to. Instead of using the phone's speakers, it would seamlessly start playing through ceiling-mounted speakers.
Many thanks 🙂
Hi folks,
I currently have some cheap Zigbee hub and some Amazon Alexas running my smart home which mostly consists of Zigbee power strips and Zigbee battery powered switches.
It all worked OK originally, but now whenever I press a Zigbee switch the light in the corresponding plug switches on then immediately off again.
If I ask Alexa to turn the light on it works fine. Likewise if I switch it on from my phone.
Any ideas what the issue could be?
I've tried unplugging the hub a number of times but that doesn't seem to fix it.
I was thinking about getting a Homey Pro 2023 to speed things up (tmas the Zigbee hub seems to be really slow now as well, for some reason) but I'm not sure about that either.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated!
Looking for a recommendation:
Locksmith is trying to talk me into the Yale Assure Lock Touchscreen with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth - the original 1st generation because they said it's built better than the Assure Lock 2. Any thoughts on this? Which would you recommend?
I see Mul T Lock makes a cylinder (KW-KIDYRL) for Yale Smart Locks. Would this fit the 1st gen Assure Lock, as well as Assure Lock 2? Has anyone tried replacing the cylinder with this on either lock?
Other smart lock I was considering is the Schlage Encode Plus.
Thanks!
Hi. So when I had my house build I ran a bunch of stuff, one of which being two pairs of speaker wires to each bedroom and to 4 spots around my living room… Over the years I have used them here and there with different success.. But today they sit in my walls just unused.
I converted all the cat6 or 5e (I don’t remember) over to basically eithernet jacks. The cable coaxial well it’s there but now unused. But I was thinking there has got to be some use for two pairs of speaker wires to each room. Can I make them usb plugs? Not sure so looking for ideas.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
Kevin
Hey guys...
We are replacing the heat pump and furnace this week and I will also need to replace my nest thermostat at the same time 'cause Nest is ending the cloud thing end of the month.
Anyway, I'm looking to use the
T6 Pro Z-Wave Programmable Thermostat | Smart Home | Honeywell HomeThat's what the heat pump installer recommend BUT, using Nest I was also using it to control the home humidifier using a single wire connected to nest... but no low voltage thermostat is able to do that, I checked all of them...
So I need some help on how I can do that, to connect the home humidifier using zwave also....
Hi
We are looking for a solution where we can detect presence of a «thing» (people , car , dog, cat, and more..
We need:
fast detections, 1-3 seconds in range from 0 to 20 m from «base» fysical «client» , chip , transmitter , unit. base , receiver placed at a door, gate, house, etc uniq Identifying wirelessThe client:
no need for pressing any thing (no buttons) battery , hoply 2-5 years battery time.Have someone done anything like this?
What technologi will be best?
Hey everyone, I'm currently working on developing a bed sensor that can detect when you're out of bed. It could be used to trigger other smart home gadgets, like lights or blinds, temperature etc.
The sensors are placed under the legs of your bed post. Should look and feel like "smart furniture pads" with size 2 inches in diameter and 1/4 inch thick.
Before we go any further, I'd love to get your thoughts on this - would a bed sensor like this be something you'd find useful? We're still in the early stages of development, so any feedback you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
smart möbeltass.JPG
@DesT, fenced code blocks display differently after the upgrade.
abc defThe above should display as abc and def on two separate lines. This works. But this fails:
verbose: true config: data: "auto"The above should display as three lines, verbose: true, config: and data: "auto", but this fails. In order to make it display properly, I now have to open the fenced code block with ```text (specify language, generic text). This displays without highlighting. The words yml and yaml (and the all-caps versions) don't seem to be recognized. I can also use js to get JavaScript highlighting, but this isn't great for YAML. Here's the same block with the language (text) specifier added (no other changes):
verbose: true config: data: "auto"Sure, we can start adding language specifiers to our new posts, but I suspect if we start digging around old posts, we're going to find a lot of broken display of the fenced code blocks (plain ``` at the start with no language specifier) in the thousands of old posts in these forums, upon which people still rely for answers and information.
Log file snippets also get similarly brutalized:
[###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.683Z <ZWaveJSController:NOTICE> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs added file logger to zwavejs.log [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.747Z <ZWaveJSController:WARN> zwavejs_capabilities defines x_zwave_device_cfg, which is not consistent with the recommended naming [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.747Z <ZWaveJSController:WARN> zwavejs_capabilities defines x_zwave_mfg_spec, which is not consistent with the recommended naming [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.747Z <ZWaveJSController:WARN> zwavejs_capabilities defines x_zwave_device_ver, which is not consistent with the recommended naming [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.747Z <ZWaveJSController:WARN> zwavejs_capabilities defines x_zwave_values, which is not consistent with the recommended naming [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.837Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs connecting to ws://192.168.0.10:3000 [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.874Z <ZWaveJSController:NOTICE> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs connected [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.874Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs sending connection initialization [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.931Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs greeting from server: [Object]{ "type": "version", "driverVersion": "10.16.0", "serverVersion": "1.28.0", "homeId": 3631280043, "minSchemaVersion": 0, "maxSchemaVersion": 28 } [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:51.932Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs performing initial inventory [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:52.325Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs manufacturer-specific data for 134 (AEON Labs) from package ver 22315.1 [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:52.328Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs configuring node 1 endpoint 0 (entity "1-0") [###BUILDVERSION###]2023-04-26T19:41:52.339Z <ZWaveJSController:INFO> ZWaveJSController#zwavejs manufacturer-specific data for 543 (Elexa Consumer Products Inc.)I think this is going to be a problem. Is there a way in NodeBB to configure the default language for fenced code block markdown for the entire forum so that these display more as they did before the upgrade?
EDIT: Examples below of old posts with corrupt formatting now:
https://smarthome.community/topic/1101/dynamic-groups-controller-filter-expressions
https://smarthome.community/post/11362
This last old post is interesting, because the first block displays incorrectly, but the second block is OK. In playing around, there seem to be triggering character sequences, suggesting that the markdown processor is trying to "guess" the language but not getting it right, perhaps:
https://smarthome.community/post/11332
Starlink Available in Some Areas
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This morning I signed up for Starlink internet. This is the Musk project that has been aboard many of the SpaceX launches for some time. I watched this morning's launch (60 additional Starlink satellites), and they announced that the Beta was open in some areas. I went to the site, and it was open in my area.
The site (starlink.com) quoted $99/mo with $499 initial equipment and setup. I realize that's pretty pricey compared to Internet access in many areas, but I currently pay a fair amount more (monthly) to my current cable- (TV) based ISP, quality and speed are inconsistent, and every year I have to fight their customer retention staff to keep my pricing from nearly doubling as my "special offer" expires.
Verizon, the dominant cellular carrier where I live, has been slow to roll out home-based Internet on 5G. This is another alternative I've been excited to investigate, but still waiting.
I'm pretty excited. Yes, I'm a Musk fan-boy. Don't judge me.
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Starling sounds interesting, On my street were I live(Sweden) I only have 24mbit from a adsl telephone line, feels like im the last house in hole Sweden on copper cable . Almost everywhere here its fiber with 1000mbit .
I tested 5G recently with my iPhone 12 proMax. I went in to Stockholm (20km) and got reception with 5G and did a bandwidth test. Shit!.....777mbit down and 47mbit up. would like that in my neighborhood ..... But I will be stuck with 24mbit for at least 2 year until fiber is coming... -
Public service utility “forgot” to cover my street, so we have no fiber and we’ll probably never get it.
There’s a public plan here in Italy to cover every house in a city with at least 100Mbit “broadband” connection, so they’re now doing FWA (4g+ to a tower, then fiber) and in two years we’ll get 5G.
There are zones where 5G FWA is already active and people are more than happy. I must say I’m happy too with 4G+, since the alternative was 6/0.5 and I’m now on a 40/4 plan, with 100/50 rolling out in the coming months and 1000/500 to be delivered via 5G. I’ll probably take a look at the mentioned service too.
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Well fibre optics were pretty much invented in my town. When it was built, the whole town had cable. In fact TV aerials were not permitted as everything was delivered via that cable.
FFWD 60 years and we have a great cable and fibre infrastructure for much of it (in fact there's a brand new (<12 months old) data centre less than 10 minutes walk from my house.It amuses me when we get ads here advertising boosters to guarantee good wifi in every room of at least 10m......
Finally ditched my cheapo rubbish late last year (was getting about 2m sitting on the damned thing) the spectrum is so polluted. I now have a couple of Ubiquiti APs (previous comments not withstanding) and now happily pull 150+ anywhere in the house.
C
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Situation in New Orleans, where things (esp. infrastructure and tech) are always behind the rest of the country. Starlink became available a week ago, which surprised me (NOLA is at 30 lat. N). Meanwhile, AT&T Fiber has been rolling out steadily over the past 2 years, so I jumped on board with no regrets. Their middle-tier 300 Mbps offering runs a few bucks less than Cox's 100 Mbps Internet service, and is far more reliably day-to-day. Thing is, when fiber goes out, it's typically out for days, not just minutes or hours like coaxial.
Can't speak to customer service yet. Back in the DSL/dial-up days, AT&T was the absolute worst in that regard, yet (aside from not honoring their sign-up promotional, which I had to kick and scream to receive) I've heard they have improved now. Cox is just a money-making monopoly with little interest in pleasing customers, so we're all thankful to see them get honest competition.
I will continue strongly urging neighbors to give Starlink a try, esp. my neighbor across the street, whom AT&T refuses to set up with Fiber, even though his other immediate neighbor has had the service for 2 years now, and the same poles pass his house. Weird.
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Not so happy with Starlink, myself, as I am an astro-photographer...
SpaceX's Dark Satellites Are Still Too Bright for Astronomers
The company’s attempts to dim the spacecraft in its megaconstellation fall short of eliminating disruptions to the world’s ground-based observatories
Although we live in a rural area, we have fibre optic to the house with 1 Gb, since the CEO of a company who installs fibres lives in the village!
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I myself am running on dual WAN from both cable (Comcast) and fiber (formerly verizon but got resold twice) Total bandwidth of 1.3Gbps/600Mbps... Had to use pfSense on my QNAP to handle that (load balance+failover) on a 10G home network.
@toggledbits I suppose you drive a Tesla?
In spite of being a tech enthusiast, I am also very wary of the RF pollution these days and was personally absolutely frightened by the spectrum 5G is going after since it obviously will have shorter range and will require more RF power and denser emission points so I will stay off of it.
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Having been in a business on the commercial side of bandwidth, it's still crazy what we have to pay. When I sold my company eight years ago, I was buying at US$1/Mbps commit 95th percentile on the low side (tier one, but not regarded as the best service, but we never had any problems at all), still paying some top tier one providers $30-40/Mbps. I still get emails from various vendors, and recently got one for 10Gbps for $1000, which is $0.1/Mbps. AT&T, owning as much in the ground and on the poles as they do, and all the others, are having a field day in residential, so the more competition there is in the market, the better. Where I live, Comcast is dominant, and AT&T is secondary and still doesn't have last-mile fiber (it's in my neighborhood but not deep enough to reach my house, so I would get fiber to a DSLAM and then copper to premise -- still DSL; my neighbors did it and got about 6Mbps of an 18Mbps promise). Verizon and the other carriers with 5G have threatened to put a serious wrinkle in their monopolies, and that can only be good for pricing eventually (they wouldn't dare price-fix, right?). Having a disruptive player in the market is very welcome.
I suppose you drive a Tesla?
@rafale77 Actually, no, I've got my little hybrid Lexus that's 7 years old and still has near new battery capacity (luckily). I'm a cheapskate with cars. They depreciate too quickly, I have no vanity whatsoever around what I drive, and I'm past the point where I'd use it to attract a mate. It's just a car. I like it spotless clean and running perfectly, but beyond that, I think I could be happy in a Trabant if it had any quality.
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@rafale77 said in Starlink Available in Some Areas:
In spite of being a tech enthusiast, I am also very wary of the RF pollution these days and was personally absolutely frightened by the spectrum 5G is going after since it obviously will have shorter range and will require more RF power and denser emission points so I will stay off of it.
Since we're not be covered with fiber, unless I'll pay for it (at about 5k/10k, probably, and 100+ Eur per month), 5G is the only way to go for me. Good for me that I'm outside the city (at the very border) and the 4G/5G tower is at 1km just in front of my house, so coverage is 5 bars. I was on dual network too (WiFi link + 4G+) until last month, and I'll now transition over two 4G+, or 1 4G + 5G. We'll see.
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Reading your speeds and cost, I'm feeling pretty good about my 500Mbps up/500Mbps down fiber with static IP for $67 a month with the option of 1Gbps up/down for $99 a month no limits. Helps having a small company go all in on fiber and strike a deal with our city to run all fiber within the city owned electric conduit. 300k resident city installed in under 3 years I think. Middle of the US in Nebraska.
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I'm in Michigan and paying $120/month for Gig speeds with no cap. I was checking out Starlink the other day as well, but there's not an actual NEED
